INT: How in terms of dealing with kids, and these are little kids, this is under 10, what's your process there?
MR: You just interview. There's no reading. When you have a kid under 10, you just interview, there's no reading. [INT: Right.] Not possible. Again, you're going by gut instinct and experience. I interviewed perhaps 100 boys, and we were flying boys down from San Francisco where there's a big Asian population. [INT: What kind of things would you be talking to them about?] Oh anything. You'd say, "Tell me your favorite toy, tell me what you like best about school," I mean anything. You know, it was just to get them to talk. Again, I mean I can't think of a specific because you just play off something that's on the table. There could be one of those perpetual motion toys, and say, "You like that? How long do you think it would keep going if we walked away from it? Have you ever heard of perpetual motion?" [INT: Here's an interesting thing. Some people are more articulate than others, but there are other people who may not be articulate, but there's something happening. Is this also--] Yeah, you look for that too. I mean, obviously, particularly with younger kids, I'm saying for example, on this perpetual motion thing, do you know there are some people who think that there, it's possible to make a perpetual motion machine? That once you start it, it will go on forever and ever? And now the kid starts looking at this machine in a new light. And he starts giggling. And I said, "How would you like to be somebody who started something that went on forever?" And then the kid sometimes lights up and does something really interesting. Talk show host, I'm telling you, it's one of the Director's necessary functions.

INT: Now, let's deal with this example where you've now seen hundreds of kids, literally hundreds of kids. And you haven't found what you want.
MR: No, nothing like the golden child [character] was walking in our door, and I have five girls, and some of them at that time were on the younger side, let me think now. At that time, I had two girls who were eight, so they were already older than the golden child, but just barely. And I certainly knew the experience and I knew the kind of delicacy that one needed and I thought, "Just get rid of the hair. Just find a little girl whose willing to shave her head. We'll get a wig for her, so she doesn't have to feel self conscious, we don't want to destroy her personality or her positiveness," you know. But this is a great gig, it's four months and out of school with a tutor, and if they want to do that, and it ends up in the summer, starts off in the winter, so maybe they would, and hair would grow back. And sure enough, that was the solution that we came up with. And a little San Francisco girl named Jasmine [Jasmine Reate] was cast as the golden child and I made sure that in the credits, it just reads J.T. Renard [J.L. Reate], I think it's Renard, it's J.T. something or other. And she was known on set as J.T., so no one on the crew, only a few makeup people and a few costume people knew the secret. Everyone else assumed that J.T…. And Eddie Murphy knew. But the other Actors didn't know. [INT: Did you think it was a bad idea to have the Tibetan leader of this entire culture be feminine? I mean some of those gods are. [LAUGH]] Well, obviously we had that too in mind, we were sensitive to all those things. [INT: Do you, in certain casting situations, put together a group before you make the decision? I don't know whether that's happened in terms of maybe the kids.] You mean like a lineup call back? [INT: Or two or three people because you know they're going to relate to each other. Maybe their villains, you've got three villains who are going to be hanging together and you want to see how they work out?] Oh yeah, no you do that, not too often, usually it's just not available, and you're just trusting your instincts there. I mean sooner or later there's a balance between going with your own instincts and doing things for the sake of the studio, the producers or whatever. [INT: What about these machines? Do you use--] Oh I hate putting things on video, because I think it makes everything look like a soap opera. So I try to avoid it, certainly avoid final decisions. I can sort through a thousand submissions quickly, on video and have been known to do that, particularly if you're out of town. But I would never make any major decisions nor would I rule out any Actors, because this process that I've talked about, is one that is antithetical to auditioning on videotape. They made us put, when I did the pilot for BEGGARS AND CHOOSERS up in Vancouver, all the Actors had to go on tape for the approval of Showtime and I forget who. And I hated that. And, you know, tried to get wherever possible the Actors to come in and audition live.

INT: Is the screen test part of the process too for you in any casting? Have you ever done that?
MR: Oh sure, you can't avoid it. I mean it's for the major star, support roles. FLETCH, certainly, you know, Fletch's wife, not wife--Tim Matheson's wife, Fletch's girlfriend in the movie was a part that had to be screen tested. And I don't do it that often. I try to avoid it because inevitably if you do a screen test, the person gets shot down. Screen tests have terrible track records. [INT: Really?] Oh yeah. Just because it isn't the finished film, it's not, even if the supporting Actor is there, he's not giving the supporting Actor performance. Something looks wrong and it makes people edgy and then they don't approve. And it's never for you, a screen test is never for you personally, it's always for the studio. Sooner or later the "Trust Me" is the sign the Director has to wear. And we haven't talked about that yet/ but it's very important. You have to decide at what point to put on the "Trust Me" sign. [INT: Is this trust yourself as well as in trust in you?] Well, first you have to decide to trust yourself, but that should come or you're not worth your salt as a Director. But then there has to come a point where you convince your associates, the people with the money, as well as maybe the people without the money but who have the opportunity to sink you, Writer, Director, whatever. Writer, Producer. And you have to convince them to trust you. Say, "Guys this is," you know. And then you get on the set with the cameraman or whatever, you know. And you say, "Just pull this wall out and flip this picture around, and this will be the reverse.” “But how's it going to cut?” “Trust me. The sun's setting and just trust me." You know, you say it; it's the most important two words in the Director's vocabulary. [INT: Have you gone--I'm glad you said it.]

INT: Have you gone through the experience of having cast a role and then said, "Wrong, I have to replace?" [MR: Yes. I have had to replace.] And have you learned--is there something you’ve learned to say, “Now I know that I could have found this out in the casting,” or is it just, “This is the luck of the draw?”]
MR: No, I think it's the luck of the draw. In THE SURVIVORS we had opposite Robin Williams, for budget reasons, an Actor who was not a big star. And it was a mistake, because this clearly called for a two star operation. And we ended up with my friend Walter Matthau, thank goodness, you know, because THE SURVIVORS, whatever else it is, is definitely a two star picture. And we had to let the other Actor go, and it was… Believe me, a stubborn act that the studio wanted no part of. I just said, "You'll have to get another Director; I can't go another day with this Actor. I don't believe him in the part." [INT: You didn't believe him in the part, literally, that's what it was?] Yes, I didn't believe it.

INT: Is the issue, we haven't talked about star casting, but let's talk a little bit about it. Obviously many pictures don't go unless you have it. How have you adjusted to that? I mean I'm sure there are pictures that you'd come to that stars have been there.
MR: Almost all my pictures have been star pictures. There are a few exceptions; SMILE is an exception. [INT: And BAD NEWS at least was a--] Well, THE BAD NEWS BEARS turned out to be a star picture, but did not start off that way. THE FANTASTICKS is not a star picture and it's one that I'm most proud of, so it isn't essential, to be a star vehicle. [INT: And when you did THE FANTASTICKS, they were fine, they said, “We don't want, we don’t…”] Oh, it was conceived of as a non-star venture. They would have loved to have a star, I mean, believe me, 10 million dollars they were kind of hoping I would pull one out of my hat. But that meant coming up with a star for El Gallo, and, you know, there just weren't stars ready, willing, and able to do that difficult a part, singing, no less. [INT: Is, in the process of putting together, I mean THE FANTASTICKS is a whole story, one that needs to be dealt with. It really does need to be talked about, because it's the issue of what happens to pictures, but… In dealing with star casting, how have you handled it? I mean have you had to be interviewed?] Oh, every picture's different. I was interviewed by Eddie Murphy, before I was given the okay on THE GOLDEN CHILD. Keep in mind they wanted Dick Donner [Richard Donner]. I was interviewed by Chevy Chase prior to getting FLETCH. I was interviewed by Goldie Hawn, prior to [WILDCATS]… By the time I was interviewed, it was pretty clear that they wanted me. It wasn't as if there were other candidates. [INT: In all three cases?] In all three cases. [INT: So were you relaxed in those interviews?] Yeah. You have to go in with the assumption you've got the job. Essential. If you're not relaxed, then they think, "Oh my god," you know, "he's a Director who doesn't have confidence in himself; if he doesn't believe in himself, how am I going to?" [INT: Well spoken, well spoken.]

INT: The issue of dealing with these stars, particularly in this early stage that we're talking about, even in the casting stage, have you, if the star has enormous power, have you defined your position with him? How do you handle, in this casting issue, I'm saying now they may have the job even before you do, but you may have the respon--you may? You have the responsibility of getting them to give the best performance they can, and that means they have to, as you just said, trust you. In those casting sessions, although they may be meetings obviously, what goes on where that process gets clear?
MR: Well, it's different. Most Actors, most star Actors get bored with the whole process, because after all, what they really want to do is their thing. So you meet whatever level of participation that they demand, with Holly Hunter it was a lot. You find a point where that participation could be damaging, and you blow the whistle if it is. And with everybody else you just kind of wait for them to wear down. Because finally the process of preparing a movie is one that most Actors don't have a lot of patience for, because it's terribly time consuming, and it involves seeing an awful lot of wrong choices. And finally the Actor says, "I want to be there for every single interview, I want to be there for every single page rewrite," realizes that there's a reason that he's become an Actor, and not a Director or a Writer. [INT: Nice.]

INT: Let's talk about one other thing a little bit and then we'll stop. And that is rehearsal, because I notice you mentioned it. Is there a standard process for you in rehearsal? I'm not talking about the rehearsal on stage, but rehearsal before shooting, if you have it.
MR: Well, it's usually to get the punch up artist if he's around, to hearing the voices of the Actors and doing a final rewrite that can take advantage of whatever these Actors are bringing to it. But no two pictures are the same and in some instances, Actors refuse to rehearse and that's fine with me too. For example, most comedians refuse to rehearse. Eddie Murphy, Chevy Chase. They just don't want to be involved in the rehearsal process. It's too fogging of what they want to do. I can't think of a better word than fogging. [INT: But that's strange in terms of Chevy Chase and both of them because of the SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE experience, which I assume is rehearsal before performance, where--] It is, but they like to think that a lot of their success came because they were winging it. And listen, there's so many comedians who don't believe in rehearsal, who say, “Just get it ready and I'll come in and do it,” that I will get it ready, but I'll sometimes get it ready on this basis that I told you about Robert Redford, where I'll put some surprise elements in it. Or I'll change it from take to take, so that it's a constant surprise for them. [INT: When you say change it from take to take, will that be changing, I'm jumping to… Because what I want to come back to talk to you about is I want to talk to you about the languages that you use to get performance. Meaning, what do you say to whom when you need to have something done?] Yep. [INT: Because that to me is, you know, the real thing that we all can learn from each other if there are things to be talked about that. Because this was an example, I was thinking about it as you said it, and I'm going to save it, but… Do you like rehearsals for yourself for any reason? I know you said for punch up dialogue and I got that.] Usually not. [INT: And how come?] Usually I'm itching to get filming. Usually I rehearse for, to make other people comfortable. You know, could be studio people, could be Producer, could be Writer, could be the Actor. [INT: Now, has there been times where you thought there was--interesting. When the Actor's had wanted that, what's that been about, where the Actors wanted it rather than not?] Oh, it just varies from moment to moment. [INT: For example, did Holly Hunter want that in…] Holly Hunter said she wanted a rehearsal and then didn't. What usually happens is that they say that they want it, and then it turns out that Holly really wanted sessions with Beau Bridges alone, which I was happy to give them. And they had the tapes of the authentic conversations, and they were able to spend this time alone, preparing their two parts, their two roles, as they faced off with each other. And so they came in really well prepared and really ready to rock and roll on those key scenes.

INT: Before day one of shooting for you, with an Actor, who you now have cast, what kind of work might you be doing? In fact, using those two [Holly Hunter and Beau Bridges], you now just said, “Okay. You guys, here are the real tapes, go ahead and do this. I know that James Woods is really smart, I'm thinking of DIGGSTOWN. I mean is there a time that you need and want to be with the Actor before day one of shooting, to do anything? I mean I'm not sure what it is, or is it necessary? Is it something you would be—
MR: Yes, but I find the wardrobe sessions are the most illuminating. I love to hang out in the wardrobe room and hear the Actor define his character by what his clothes are. It's enormously valuable. I think the wardrobe designer is an enormous--you've heard me mention Wayne Finkelman, who was a fabulous talent. But subsequent to that I've worked with one of his protégés, Luke Reichle, huge talent. Before that Pattie Norris, huge talent. [INT: Now will you have a dialogue with the wardrobe person before they have their dialogue with the Actor?] Yes. Oh absolutely, because otherwise you could end up, you know, rowing the wrong canoe in the wrong direction. No, absolutely. [INT: And I've often found that this is a very, very tricky place, because I know when Actors--and I've burned myself a couple times, where an Actor's come in wanting something that I didn't want, and I resisted it and I realized it was too minor and what I did was made for distance. And I'm curious, just talking about wardrobe, really specifically about wardrobe here, because you’ve--] I think it's a question of the truth again, what you're looking for in the character. What you want to come out of the scene. No, I just don't think one size fits all, particularly when it comes to wardrobe. [INT: I'll allow you to get away with that one. But you say you learn a lot from being with the Actor in the wardrobe session, because?] Because it's their first chance to talk about who the character is from something that's a non-academic position. Who they are, what they wear, you know. What they're comfortable in, you know. It's a big thing. And maybe, they may have the wrong thing, too. [INT: Have you had that happen? Anything comes to mind?] I'd have to think about it. Usually by the time I get together in that wardrobe session, the wardrobe designer has prepared the Actor with the right dialogue, because the Actor may not have the right dialogue. And the wardrobe designer has somehow found a way to make sure that his concept isn't going to get screwed up.

INT: Having cast the role, is there any conceptual work that you do, that may be even on your own, about that particular character or role before first day of shooting? You've cast it now; you've got--
MR: So much. I mean that is a huge sweeping question. Everything that has to do with the development of the script, everything that led to the casting of the particular Actors involved, I mean, the question is unanswerable. [INT: Got it. But I'm curious if something new happens, once you've got your Actor? In other words--] We then incorporate it, but that's happening all the time, of course there's new things. Of course, you know, once you have your Actor, you are getting new ideas in every moment. The selection of the props, the wrist watch, whatever. These are all things that are being informed day in day out as the shooting date gets closer and closer. That's why you have to start shooting and stop talking. [INT: Because you're ready to do it.] Because you're ready to do it. You know you're ready to do it. And nothing could be worse than talking it out more. Too much preparation. [INT: So to some degree, then, you… I mean this is interesting. Do you think this also is informed by the fact that the documentary tradition that you have come from and admire is partially that, you want that rawness of the moment and not to be overly prepared.] Exactly. You've got something that's real, don't dress it up in false ornaments. [INT: Now, is there any history, it’s interesting, just a couple things that… You've got a father and daughter that aren't a father and daughter here on THE BAD NEWS BEARS or you've got a group of kids that supposedly know each other, is there any or, husband and wife from our alleged murderer [THE POSITIVELY TRUE ADVENTURES OF THE ALLEGED TEXAS CHEERLEADER-MURDERING MOM]; is there any of that kind of rehearsal work that you want or encourage or have done in saying, "Okay. I've got to put together a family that's not a family, that I want them to do something before we start shooting," or is that something that you're--] No. I think that's unnecessary. It’s actually a brother-in-law that is Beau Bridges, her former brother-in-law, because he's been divorced now. But he's Terry's brother, Terry, the ex-husband's. [INT: In the issue of a history, though, of a relationship, will you want or have or encourage them to--] Oh, you get together; you take family photos, whatever. I mean, again, I don't think that that's essential. The Actor may feel it, and if the Actor feels it's essential, then you do it because you have to listen to that complaint, and it's a legitimate one if they've brought it up. And then you try to create that moment.